LEAP Listens
LEAP Listens is a bitesize podcast hosted by Sara MacGregor and Roger Cayless who are both leaders in Employer Branding, Candidate Experience and Recruitment Marketing. In this ongoing series of podcasts they tackle client and industry themes and along the way host expert guests who provide opinion, stories and advice on the world of ‘people communications’.
LEAP Listens
Why Inclusion is the Secret to High Performance with Dr Marcia Goddard
In this episode of LEAP Listens, Sara MacGregor and Roger Cayless are joined by neuroscientist and author Dr Marcia Goddard to explore why inclusion isn’t about box-ticking, it’s about performance. From team trust to psychological safety, Marcia unpacks the brain science behind belonging, and why diverse teams only thrive when people feel safe enough to show up fully.
LEAP Listens is brought to you by LEAP Create, an award-winning people communications agency. Find out more at leapcreate.co.uk
Hello Sarah.
Speaker 2:Hi Roger. So we're heading towards our 90th episode. Crazy. What are we going to do for our 100th? Is it yeah, is it 100th? Is it 100th?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. Maybe we should be really self-indulgent and be our own guests.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was thinking, you know billboard in.
Speaker 1:Piccadilly Circus or something like that. We could invite everyone back on and see how many people turn up.
Speaker 2:Yes, in 15 minutes, 100 guests.
Speaker 1:And they've all got. They've got a word each.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we'll work on that one. Yeah, let's work on that.
Speaker 1:Just you know we're blue skying here. Yes, anyway, back to the yeah, back to the job in hand which is um speaking to someone who we had the pleasure of hearing at that eb uncut unconference that we were part of at the start of the year. I know that probably doesn't make sense chronologically if you're listening to this in another year, but all the same, when we'd heard her we thought that's someone who we have to get on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Yes, and we were sitting in different seats, weren't we, and we?
Speaker 1:both said we were, we weren't allowed to sit together. I don't think.
Speaker 2:She's a podcast guest, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did yeah.
Speaker 2:So Dr Marcia Goddard is a neuroscientist who's made it her mission to bridge the gap between science and business, so training complex ideas about how our brains work into real, practical strategies for teams and leaders.
Speaker 1:And I guess the takeaway message, without spoiling everything she's going to say, was really how she sees diversity and inclusion as a branch of high performance. And she should know, because she's worked with Formula One teams and recruitment organisations, global organisations, and all with the focus on how people think, behave and how they perform at their best.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So she's super smart, insightful and brilliant at making complicated stuff feel very human and accessible, so let's go.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the podcast, Dr Marcia.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1:It's good to be here. Excellent so, Dr. We've established your credentials. Should I continue to call you doctor all the way through, or can we go with Marcia?
Speaker 3:For the love of all that is holy, please call me marcia, please okay, all right, marcia, that's great.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm glad that you've um, you've let me know that I can. So we um, sarah and I, were saying we first encountered you at the un conference where you were on stage for a discussion about diversity, equity, inclusion, which is still, and was particularly at the time, a hot topic, and the reason that you stood out to both of us as someone who we thought you'd definitely be a good podcast guest is because you had some really interesting and different things to say about diversity, equity, inclusion and, certainly from your neuroscientist background, how you linked it really to high performance and almost didn't really like the term.
Speaker 3:So that's the basis of our discussion today.
Speaker 1:But first of all, just give us a little bit about yourself. We've obviously given you some intro, but it'd be great just for our listeners to hear a bit of intro from you.
Speaker 3:Of course. Yeah, so I'm a neuroscientist by training, I guess. I used to work in academia as an assistant professor, but I realized that writing grant proposals for a living is not what I signed up for when I said I want to be a scientist. So I decided to leave academia. I went into the corporate world and I started my company Brain Matters. I kept doing research. So I've studied everything kind of related to high performance environments. So I've studied high performance in large organizations. I've studied high performance in Formula One, and the research that I've done kind of formed the foundation of the work that we now do with organizations to help them create high performance environments. And for me people always ask how did you end up here? And I don't know. I don't know how I ended up here. I started doing what I liked and I love everything. I literally am one of those people that wakes up in the morning and things I'm looking forward to going to work. So I'm a very, very happy person oh great.
Speaker 2:So, marta, tell us, when you tell people that D&I is essential to high performance, what's the most um sort of like common pushback you hear, and how do you respond to that?
Speaker 3:funnily enough, it's usually not pushback that I get, it's usually uh, that's usually what I hear, like a sigh of oh god, here we go. Again, there's another one, and and I think that I'm aware of how I look like I am a woman of color. It doesn't factor into my work, though, and I think that's where people that is a bit of a disconnect, because what I've seen happening a lot in practice is that when people start to talk about diversity, equity, inclusion, they often talk from their own experience, which is fine. I'm not necessarily against that, but my approach is mainly to talk about it from a science perspective, and the pushback that you do see is that people find it difficult to accept other realities, and that's even looking at it from a brain perspective. That makes sense, because if we don't experience something as the truth, we find it very difficult to understand that that is someone else's truth. Like we have a reality. It's a bias we have in our brains.
Speaker 3:So the pushback is that people tend to think, nah, it can't be like that. No, the world is actually fair. If you just work hard, everything will be okay. So it's difficult for people to imagine the barriers that people might face when they are different in any way, shape or form, but usually, at least in my conversations, that very quickly turns that pushback or that deep sigh that they have very quickly turns into oh, this is actually quite interesting because I truly believe that the angle that we have is different. We don't really talk about the barriers, we just talk about how do you create a high performance environment, and I rarely actually have discussions about diversity and inclusion as concepts because I actively avoid it these days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's what's interesting for me is, I think we talked, we had a sort of bit of a pre-chat and we were talking about how it used to be the case that certainly with briefs that we'd get to recruit roles, creative briefs at the bottom of the brief would always be something along the lines of and don't forget, you know, to include some element of diversity in this.
Speaker 1:And we kind of which was a cipher for, oh, if you do a photo shoot, you know, just make sure it looks like there's representation across age, ethnicity and gender. And that always felt a little bit lazy and led to a certain type of image and and something where you know you're suspicious of tokenism and all those sorts of things, but at the same time, how do you have representation without tokenism and all these sorts of things? So it's always a bit of a of a minefield to have to navigate, and I suppose I had this, this vision that oh, there shouldn't really be such thing as diversity and inclusion. So the holy grail should be that it just is, you know, and and but, as the discussion that we had, you were kind of saying, well, yeah, but some people do start from a different place and some people, you know, do come with with with diverse baggage, and I just thought it's interesting because it's nuanced and it's complicated and I think sometimes it's difficult to talk about because you're worried that you might say the wrong thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's valid.
Speaker 1:Is there a question in there? Not really no.
Speaker 3:No, but I'll respond. It's OK, because there's a lot in there that I that I'm very much willing to respond to, because I think you make a very valid point in the sense that it is very difficult to get it right, but it is very, very easy to get it wrong, and this is especially the case if you are a white middle-aged man that it's almost impossible to get it right. You can get it right 99 times, but then the 100th time you make a mistake and you say something that is offensive, hurtful, discriminatory or without having any bad intentions. People are harsh, like the world is very harsh on people, and that's not just on white middle-aged men. Everyone is very unkind to each other, especially online. So I think the issue right now is that that leads to people either staying away from the topic altogether because they're like, yeah, I'm not going to engage with this, or walking on eggshells, being very careful, which is also not what you want.
Speaker 3:So the way I view it is you want to create an environment. It's going to sound weird when I say this, but when I work a lot with leadership teams, senior leadership teams, who are the ones usually white middle-aged men, because that is still a fact, and that's all right, and I actually I'm kind of grateful or thankful or happy when they start saying things that are a little bit discriminatory, hurtful or racist, because it means that they're honest with me and then we can actually have a conversation about it. But if they're too afraid to say anything because they don't want to hurt my feelings, I'm not going to be able to help them, and so for me, dei is part of a bigger concept of high performance, and high performance is an environment where you have constructive conflict, where you have different perspectives that come together and that don't always agree, but you are able to say things without having to worry about your status or your reputation or the consequences are being canceled or whatnot. You are allowed to make mistakes, and that is the part, I think, of this whole process of creating inclusive work environments that a lot of people sort of gloss over. It's okay to do it if you're in the minority, but if you're part of the majority group, then you have to be perfect.
Speaker 3:That's impossible. It is literally impossible to do that. So I acknowledge the barriers that are there. They are there for certain groups and we have to acknowledge those. But the way to get people to acknowledge them is to allow the majority group to get it wrong every once in a while without immediately saying well, now your whole company is cancelled and you don't matter anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a really good point, because it is you do you do have that nervousness, don't you, about am I going to say the wrong thing? Um, and just yeah, and the impact of that. I mean I started my question on probably quite a negative, you know um question in terms of, um, the pushback that you do get, but, um, from a sort of neuroscience perspective, um, what happens to um from a you know positive point of view? What happens to, from a you know positive point of view, what happens to our brains when we work in, sort of like, a very truly diverse and inclusive environment?
Speaker 3:when, when we are in an environment in which everybody can be themselves and everybody feels free to share and share ideas and perspectives, what you get is that I always describe it as our brains start to fire on all cylinders.
Speaker 3:So, for example, the functioning of our prefrontal cortex, which is at the front part of the brain, right behind our foreheads, functioning of that brain area, is optimized in an environment that is inclusive and that feels psychologically safe. That is the brain area where things like problem solving and critical thinking and creativity and decision-making are regulated. So if you have an inclusive environment, then by definition, just from a physiological perspective, everybody is going to be performing better and because you have those skills, it's also better. Problem-solving skills and creativity are best suited in an environment where you have a lot of different perspectives. But those perspectives are only going to work for you if everybody is actually able to express their difference. If people are hiding parts of who they are, if they are hiding the fact that they have a different sexual orientation or they are women in a men's industry and they're trying to act like men, then they spend mental resources towards masking, masking parts of their identity, and those are mental resources that they are then not spending on performing?
Speaker 3:So, just from a business perspective, inclusion makes a lot of sense, and the way I view it is if you have that environment, if you have a high performance environment, then the diversity will come, because people flock to environments where they can actually be themselves and they can share their ideas, and there is an environment where everybody feels like, yes, we're all in it together. So diversity is an outcome of an inclusive environment.
Speaker 1:That's I'm going to try and articulate a thought here. Sarah's going to give a small groan as I won't be able to do it successfully, but I think the reason I find this absolutely yeah, absolutely fascinating is that I think we've done campaigns in the past that are all about diversity of thought, and I think the mature attitude toward diversity is exactly what you're saying, which is that you would say to someone it's really important for business that we have different, diverse thoughts, and that's what we would say. So it's not just about tokenism and meeting targets and quotas. It's actually really important for business. However, I'm not sure I've ever had tiny use cases that can then back that up. Doesn't mean I don't believe it, but I don't. So what examples do you have where actually you can demonstrably say here's an environment which is diverse in all its forms of high performing, and it's diverse and actually works in a way that wasn't, you know, built from meeting a quota or ensuring there was 50 50 gender split?
Speaker 3:I think, well, I don't think there's any environment that that has it down perfectly and that has to do with the way the world is operating right now, like I don't think, if you are in your right mind, that right now in the world you won't exactly feel safe because there's just too much going on, and that those societal and political influences are present in work environments as well.
Speaker 3:But I think what I have noticed so some of our client base has been around for 150, 180, 200 years like really legacy organizations. They struggle with this because when they were founded this wasn't a topic, it just it wasn't there. And then if you look at more like 21st century organizations, I think those organizations have a better understanding of what it means to operate in this industry and they don't have to change. They have actually built their environments based on the fact that the world is diverse, that there are different perspectives. So I think the newer let's say we don't really work with startups but I would say like scale-ups in more progressive industries, like the tech industry, which it has its own issues as well. But I think in those more progressive industries, that's where you see that diversity of thought is appreciated and DEI is not so much an initiative as just part of the way that the organization operates because it has to.
Speaker 2:And what's your sort of typical brief?
Speaker 3:that you would get from an organization. They call you up, we need you to what's the typical. It varies a lot. Sometimes organizations will say, well, we have noticed, for example, in our engagement surveys, that we have some issues around psychological safety or inclusion or team dynamics. Can you come in and help? But then I mean we also work in Formula One and they are high performing but they want to be more high performing. So we also have companies that come to us and say, well, what do you have to offer? Like, can you make us better?
Speaker 3:I think we do also have clients, especially like right after 2020, after George Floyd, we had a lot of clients that said can you help us be more diverse? Had a lot of clients that said, can you help us be more diverse. I rarely say no, because sure, we can do that. But then that is the beginning of a longer conversation when we say, well, I'm not going to help you get more women or anything, because I'm not a recruiter, I wouldn't know how to do that and I don't do marketing, I do culture. But what we can do is help you create an environment in which any diversity that comes into the organization is actually willing to stay and able to stay because they can perform. So I think it's across the board. It's either companies that need help with some element of team dynamics and culture, or companies that say, well, we're doing well, but we want to figure out how we can be even better.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say how do you do that? What do you do, like when someone says you know about the culture?
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to ask a similar question, which was also to say like is what do you look at? Because so pretty much what Sarah is saying. But just someone comes in. It's like oh, can you make us more diverse, more high performing? What's the thing that you look at? Where do you reach to first to find out what's the benchmark?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the high performing things are really interesting. Part like dynamic, isn't it to that? So I think yeah, if you can answer it in that lens.
Speaker 3:It's a good question and this is obviously where the research that I've done comes in. So I spent a number of years studying organizations and studying Formula One. So we have a framework for high performance that consists of culture, elements, leadership skills and individual qualities that together create a high performance environment. And how we usually start is by working with an organization to say, okay, what data do you already have? That could be engagement data, could be any data that they have available. Based on that data, we then do a qualitative analysis where we actually speak to a subset of people in the organization to really give context to that data, and that kind of results in a benchmark. A benchmark for this is where you are in terms of high performance and to give you an example of elements that are part of that high performance culture we look at clear communication is crucial. We also look at openness to alternative perspectives, which is where that's the DEI element, that's the inclusion element, but we call it openness to alternative perspectives, and that's because framing helps in just getting people to accept it.
Speaker 3:In terms of leadership, we look at do people have autonomy? Is there trust in the organization? Do leaders build psychological safety? And because we do that scan, we get a fairly holistic view of what needs to happen, and then any intervention that we develop is based on that data, so that we know that we're targeting the right areas. Because I won't lie, sometimes we also have organizations that say, oh, we want to do a training program on psychological safety or giving feedback or whatever, and if that's really what they want, we'll do it.
Speaker 3:But in an ideal world, we will start with doing that analysis, then we build interventions, and once those and those interventions are usually like training programs, leadership programs we also do individual and team coaching, and once that is done, I don't want to be the type of organization that has to come back after three years because the people who did the training have left and now they're back to square one. So what we then try to do is what we call integration, where we work with the organization to, for example, redesign the recruitment process or redesign the EVP or adapt the EVP so that everything that they have learned is also embedded in the processes, that they have performance reviews as well, so that the behavior becomes self-sustaining and we don't have to continuously come back to train it.
Speaker 1:This question is a bit naughty so you don't have to answer it, but does?
Speaker 3:it ever result.
Speaker 1:I know I like to tee things up like that, because it makes it more exciting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but does it ever?
Speaker 1:result in an individual. So is it ever like do you know what we've done? All this and yeah, it's Barry in accounts is the problem or it's actually the person who's leading the organization? Does it ever sort of result in in a kind of almost like here's your problem and it's and it's them?
Speaker 3:No, and the reason. But there's a reason for that. It can be a group of people. Sometimes won't lie. Sometimes it's like, okay, this leadership is just shit, like the dynamics and the team are not good and they're not making good decisions. But then it's still team dynamics. It's rarely, unless an organization is a true dictatorship. It's rarely one person, because even if it's barry in accounts, barry in accounts probably has some issues. Poor barry, poor barry, he just needs to talk about it. He needs some help. So we coach him and then Barry realizes I think you're just acting like an ass and that's because I'm not happy with this and this and this and this that is happening.
Speaker 3:So let's fix that. And then Barry in accounts is either happy again or sometimes Barry in accounts decides to leave because he realizes this is not my environment anymore. So sure, yes, there are people in organizations that are disruptive and that needs to be addressed, but an entire organization, a culture, is rarely, like I said, unless it's a dictatorship rarely reliant on one single person. To be honest, what I thought you were going to ask. So what happens quite a lot is when we work with organizations and we're done, some people try to jump ship and they ask us if we have any vacancies, because they right, they like what we do great recruitment strategy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that and just to be clear. Um, if there's anyone called barry listening and you're working in accounts, I'm not. I'm not talking about you, it's the it's the other one.
Speaker 2:So, um, from a comms perspective, marcia, how, how does comms play a part in in your world and and changing people's perspectives and in that sort of high performance space?
Speaker 3:I would like them to play a much bigger part than they tend to play. Um, we often come in through hr or people in like. That's often our starting point. Our main stakeholders are there because this is culture. Work is often put on them. We see it as it's an organization wide thing and we work really, really hard to help our clients understand that it shouldn't remain an HR initiative. So what we ideally do is, for example, when we do training or when we're designing an EVP, for example.
Speaker 3:By definition, I feel like internal comms especially have to be involved in that, because they are the ones who can help communicate it in the right language to the people in the organization. Because we come in as externals and we have ideas and thoughts and we have whole scientific frameworks, but we don't want to use that language, want to use their language. So I really love working with internal comms, external comms sometimes as well, if they're interested. I'm not a marketing person, obviously, so the impact there is is limited. But sometimes when they say, well, actually we've done this and we want to also communicate it externally, then I really enjoy doing that too. Um, but it's less so than I hope, than I had hoped. Um, they're less involved than I had hoped. They're less involved than I had hoped because too often still it remains with HR, and I think that's a shame, because I think the impact would be much bigger if there was more integration between those two areas and just a couple more questions.
Speaker 1:I'm conscious of your time, but it's so fascinating to talk to you that it is. Unless you've got to go. It is one of these ones where we can talk for a bit longer. So, with that in mind, because our job is often to communicate these things externally, so we do get involved in in things, but not quite at the depth that you do from you know, changing entire cultures, and our job is often to communicate the culture of an organisation or advertise for roles. So do you ever get involved in that where it's like oh, we've done all this, this stuff, this is the employer brand, where these are the images we're using, this is the message we're going out with, and that is at odds with what you've been doing internally or saying well, you know how much work is done to sort of make sure that the work that you do is congruent with the message that you put out there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a good question. Let me start by saying that I always assume good intentions, but I think what I see the most is that external communication is not congruent with where the organization is at that time.
Speaker 1:Too ambitious.
Speaker 3:So it's not that they communicate something that is at odds with what I am doing, but it's more at odds with the actual situation internally, because there's some work that still needs to be done and prior to that work being done, they already want to shout about it, which, again, I don't assume bad intentions. I understand that the problem that you will encounter then is if you start talking about an environment being a certain way, but it's actually not that way yet.
Speaker 3:You attract certain people that are expecting that environment. And then they enter your organization they're like hold on, this is not what I signed up for. And then you get that whole self-fulfilling prophecy of they leave and then they say, see, diversity doesn't work, it's just not the right environment for them, and then the whole thing sort of crumbles. So I think there is a lot of power in vulnerability when it comes to employer brand. I've seen some organizations do this to say, look, this is who we want to be. We're not there yet, but if you come in, you can help us get there. I think that is such an incredibly strong message to send and I know from experience or from the work that I've done, that when you look at the populations that they're trying to reach, that is actually a message that people really appreciate. People just want honesty.
Speaker 2:That's great advice that really is good advice, isn't it? Particularly in certain industries where they sort of struggle too high, say more women and things like that, and yeah, I think that's, um, yeah, brilliant advice, probably to. To end on, because we've come to the end, these are bite-sized podcasts. Before we do, though, if we ask our final question, is there anything that we haven't asked that you wanted to to get across in in this podcast?
Speaker 2:and I know you've got, yeah, because you've got something more intellectual we've obviously heard you speak at the event and, um, you did have some really, really great insights and if we haven't covered anything and you wanted to to talk about that, this is your dangerous question to ask because I can talk about this for literally days on end.
Speaker 3:I don't think there's anything specific that I haven't answered yet.
Speaker 3:What I do want to say and this is just because I love the industry so much Formula One gets a lot of criticism for the way that they approach, especially the topic of DEI, and, yes, there are definitely things that need to be better, but when it comes to high performance environment, the reason I do always mention Formula One is because there is a foundation there especially among the race teams and the people who design the cars of psychological safety and inclusion, where people truly are accepted for who they are and they can share their ideas, even if those ideas are crazy and out there because it might make the car go faster.
Speaker 3:That, I think, is a blueprint for success when it comes to creating the environment for women, for other people from underrepresented groups. They are not there yet, but I do really appreciate the steps that they are taking, and they're actually one of the industries where I see the most vulnerability internally and people who are saying we want to get there, but we're not there yet and we're going to be very sensitive in what we communicate externally because we don't want to, you know set the wrong tone If you could email that blueprint over to sarah and I. Um after the call um.
Speaker 1:That would be much appreciated. Coming out next, there we go, oh wow, brings us nicely on to our final, final question, which is just something we ask all our guests, and that is are there any interesting things that you're currently reading, things you're listening to that you would recommend? It doesn't have to be super cerebral. It could be the very hungry caterpillar. So, yeah, what would you recommend?
Speaker 3:So often people will ask me what do I, how do I do what you do? How do I? Well, I mean, I can't say that because I don't exactly know how I ended up here. But if you're interested in, like, what drives behavior and why we do what we do, then there is a book by Robert Sapolsky, who is a neurobiologist, and the book is called Behave. It's not bite-sized, let me put it that way, because the audiobook is, as I understand it, 27 hours, right, but it's worth it because he's a very good writer. He used very like recognizable examples. He's a great like really down to earth way of explaining things and he truly explains where our behavior comes from. So if people listening are interested in really understanding the brain and brain behavior dynamics, that is the best recommendation that I can give, Aside from my own book which is coming out next year and it's called what's it called?
Speaker 3:Oh sorry, which is called. It's called Driven. What's it called? Oh sorry, which is called? Uh, it's called driven, right? No, it's not. No, no, scratch that we changed the title. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:It's actually called driving performance right, okay oh is it is it 27 hours long? Because do you want to see that other guy's uh book 20 said that's a long time. I can see. Hopefully you don't cut off your arm after 27 hours like the film of the same name.
Speaker 3:No, the book's quite good. No, I don't have. I respect Robert Sapolsky, but I don't have the patience to write a 27 hour long book. So, no, it won't be 27 hours, it'll be less.
Speaker 2:Less dedication Well.
Speaker 1:I will definitely. Will it be available as audio? Because I only listen to books, I know many people who only listen to audiobooks.
Speaker 3:So yes, I have made an agreement with my publisher that it has to be in an audio version as well, which I hope to be, you know, reading myself, because it feels weird to have someone else read your book.
Speaker 2:So just a top tip I've got someone in my network who wrote a book and went to the recording to record their audio book in leather trousers and was told that they needed to change them. So don't do that top tip there I don't think I'm.
Speaker 3:Thank you for the tip. I am also at a point in my life where leather trousers I don't think are an option anymore I'm at a point in my life where I'm considering leather trousers there we go.
Speaker 1:I think you should roger look, it's been amazing to talk to you. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it yes, and um, yeah, thanks once again for your time very welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me and there is our leap lift again, roger right. What are we lifting about today? Can you see my enthusiasm for this one?
Speaker 1:I, can you feel more enthusiastic than you've ever felt before about a leap lift? I know I can't wait to get stuck in and today we're going to be talking about email talent polls. We are and I mean that was the line in my script, but that's absolutely fine, sarah Hold on.
Speaker 2:Let me cue Sarah. Ah, one of my favorites. In actual fact, it is actually one of my favorites. I do love a bit of email talent pools, so building and nurturing email talent pools is one of the most cost-effective recruitment marketing channels available. It's all owned data and what we can do at LeapCreate is help you scope that out perfectly to a perfect strategy to help keep potential candidates engaged and informed about your company.
Speaker 1:That's right. We design and build custom email nurture programs that keep talented candidates updated on company news, culture insights and relevant job alerts, keeping your brand top of mind when they're ready to make their next move yes, and it's a.
Speaker 2:It's brilliant for creating that warm and engaged talent pipeline, and what we've done is we've crafted some really great email campaigns to help nurture, like I say, that owned data, which is a much more cost-effective way than, say, paid social or constantly paying for new job boards, which is obviously all still very important, but it's definitely a channel which I think gets massively overlooked.
Speaker 1:It does and what we can do is design and build emails that suit specific recruitment needs. So, whether that's a graduate programs or you need senior leadership or you've got very niche technical roles, then I recommend that you talk to us about getting started with your email. Talent pool strategy.
Speaker 2:Yes, talk to us, Give us a call or drop us a DM in LinkedIn.
Speaker 1:Slide into our DMs. Right, good, all right. Well, we've arrived.